Reason 4 - Absence of the Church in Revelation Chapters 4 - 19

A lack of seeing the word Church 

in Revelation chapters 4 - 19 

is often used as a "proof" 

that the believers were all 

Raptured off the planet,

before the start 

of the Great Tribulation.

Let's take a closer look at this theory,

and see if it makes sense.

Item # 4 

in a list of 7 Reasons 

for a Pre-Trib Rapture is:

4. *Absence of the Church in 

Revelation Chapters 4-19:*
- **Revelation 4:1**: 

John is called up to heaven 

before the judgments unfold. 

"Come up here".
- **Revelation 13:7**:

 The saints mentioned here 

are Tribulation saints, 

not the Church.
- **Revelation 19:11-14**:

 The Church returns with Christ, 

suggesting it was previously 

taken to heaven.
The absence of explicit references 

to the Church 

during the Tribulation judgments 

suggests 

it is not present on earth 

during this period. 

Thanks to David Floyd 

for this 4th of his 7 Reasons 

he posted in defense

of the Pre-Trib Rapture theory. 

This is actually 5 related points.

Let's look at the First Point given:

Absence of the Church in 

Revelation Chapters 4-19

This is not a very strong argument 

in defence of a Rapture of Believers 

before the time of the Great Tribulation.

It is based primarily on 

a misunderstanding 

of the term "Church".

Let's take a closer look 

at what Revelation is telling us.

First, let's start with 

how the word "Church" is used 

in the first 3 chapters of Revelation.

It is used to tell us 

that John has been instructed

to share this Revelation

with 7 of the churches in Asia.

 

Revelation chapter 1 verse 4:

 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

And then in verse 11:

saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, 

the First and the Last," 

and, "What you see, 

write in a book 

and send it to the seven churches 

which are in Asia: 

And each church is 

referenced by its location,

and given a specific message.

The purpose of sharing this Revelation 

is referenced in verse 19 of the first chapter,

Write the things which you have seen, 

and the things which are, 

and the things which 

will take place after this.

And we also see a specific mention near the end of the Revelation,

Chapter 22 verse 16,

I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify 

to you these things in the churches.

This is how the word "church" or "assembly" 

is used in the book of Revelation.

Believers are referenced in several other ways.

Taking a closer look at this point

should clear up this misconception.

The primary term for believers in the New Testament 

is the word "saints".

It is how Paul addresses the believers in his letters 

to various churches.

For example:

Romans chapter 1 verse 7

To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, 

called to be saints:

I Corinthians chapter 1 verse 2

To the church of God 

which is at Corinth, 

to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, 

called to be saints

I Corinthians chapter 14 verse 33

For God is not the author of confusion 

but of peace, as in 

all the churches 

of the saints.

If you do a word search, 

you'll find the believers in each church 

referenced as "saints".

And we find the term "saints" 

used over a dozen times

in chapters 4 - 19 of Revelation.

 

Looking at Chapter 13 verses 7 - 10

this passage puts the saints 

in the time of the Great Tribulation

were it says,

It was granted to him 

to make war with the saints 

and to overcome them. 

And authority was given him 

over every tribe, tongue, 

and nation.

All who dwell on the earth 

will worship him, 

whose names have not been written 

in the Book of Life of the Lamb 

slain from the foundation of the world.

If anyone has an ear, 

let him hear.

He who leads into captivity 

shall go into captivity; 

he who kills with the sword 

must be killed with the sword. 

Here is the patience 

and the faith of the saints.

* KNOWING what is going to happen 

and what we should expect 

as believers during this time period

is key to having faith

and patience ( or steadfastness )

as we face persecution

and possible death at the hands of the antichrist.

Knowing that death 

is not the end for the believer.

It is the beginning of a new life.

We are promised a resurrection,

a new body,

and that we always be 

with our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, there is very little that Satan and his cohorts 

can actually do to us.

Scripture is full of promises in this regard.

*

The Second point

- **Revelation 4:1**: 

John is called up to heaven 

before the judgments unfold. 

"Come up here".

To say that John being told to 

"come up here" 

in Revelation chapter 4 verse 1,

represents a pre-trib Rapture of believers

is reading into the actual text,

something that is not supported by context,

or by any other scripture passage.

Let's read the verse:

After these things I looked, 

and behold, 

a door standing open in heaven. 

And the first voice which I heard 

was like a trumpet speaking with me, 

saying, "Come up here, 

and I will show you things 

which must take place after this.

John is shown many things in heaven, 

and shares many details of what the future holds,

but neither he or the church 

is identified as being Raptured at this time.

John is also told to "come" 2 other times 

in Revelation to be shown more things.

Chapter 17 and verse 1,

"Come, I will show you the judgment 

of the great harlot 

who sits on many waters,

and

Chapter 21 and verse 9,

"Come, I will show you the bride, 

the Lamb's wife."

And we see the two witnesses 

being told to Come Up Here,

in Revelation chapter 11 verse 12.

But this applies to them 

being resurrected after 3 1/2 days,

and only those two

(  no others ) 

being taken up into heaven.

It says,

And they heard a loud voice from heaven 

saying to them,

 "Come up here." 

And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, 

and their enemies saw them.

Moving on to Point # 3

- **Revelation 13:7**:

 The saints mentioned here are Tribulation saints, 

not the Church.

This is the first time I've come across this interpretation.

My response is simply,

The scriptures nowhere state 

that there are different types of saints.

Let's read the verse

Revelation chapter 13 verse 7,

says,

It was granted to him 

to make war with the saints 

and to overcome them. 

And authority was given him 

over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

I don't see any distinction between 

a first century "saint",

or any believer who lives today,

or in the future.

This passage in 

Ephesians chapter 2 verses 19-22

is one example of our unity,

Now, therefore, 

you are no longer strangers and foreigners, 

but fellow citizens with the saints 

and members of the household of God, 

having been built on the foundation 

of the apostles and prophets, 

Jesus Christ Himself 

being the chief cornerstone, 

in whom the whole building, 

being fitted together, 

grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 

in whom you also are being built together 

for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Next we have

The 4th Point presented is:

- **Revelation 19:11-14**:

 The Church returns with Christ, 

suggesting it was previously taken to heaven.

A closer look at this passage reveals

that neither the word church 

or even saints is referenced.

And the armies of God 

are generally referenced as His angels.

see examples in:

Joshua chapter 5 verse 13-15 

and Verse 14 reads,

as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.

and 

2 Kings chapter 6 verses 16 and 17

So he answered, “Do not fear, 

for those who are with us are more 

than those who are with them.” 

And Elisha prayed, and said, 

“Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” 

Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, 

and he saw. 

And behold, the mountain was full of horses 

and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

and 

Revelation chapter 12 verses 7 and 8

And war broke out in heaven: 

Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; 

and the dragon and his angels fought,

but they did not prevail, 

nor was a place found for them in heaven 

any longer.

The Lord is returning with His angels,

2 Thessalonians chapter 1 verses 7 and 8 

comes to mind,

which says;

 and to give you who are troubled 

rest with us 

when the Lord Jesus 

is revealed from heaven 

with His mighty angels,

in flaming fire 

taking vengeance 

on those who do not know God, 

and on those who do not obey the gospel 

of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The fact they are referenced as clothed 

in fine linens, white and clean,

does not definitely 

identify them as the Church.

Also, I see no reference to believers riding white horses

elsewhere in scripture.

Let's go ahead and read the passage 

in question from 

Revelation chapter 19 verses 11 - 14,

Now I saw heaven opened, 

and behold, a white horse. 

And He who sat on him 

was called Faithful and True, 

and in righteousness 

He judges and makes war. 

His eyes were like a flame of fire, 

and on His head were many crowns. 

He had a name written 

that no one knew except Himself. 

He was clothed with a robe 

dipped in blood, 

and His name is called 

The Word of God. 

And the armies in heaven, 

clothed in fine linen, white and clean, 

followed Him on white horses.

You will find many who do believe the armies 

could be referencing the Church.

However,

Even if that was a correct understanding 

of who the "armies in heaven" are,

This would not prove an earlier Rapture.

A post-trib Rapture 

at the end of the Tribulation period fits just as well.

As we do see the Resurrection of those asleep,

and our transformation 

to be included in the return of Christ.

As we are told in I Thessalonians chapter 4

we are to meet Him in the air,

when He comes in the clouds.

In I Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 15-17

we read;

For this we say to you 

by the word of the Lord, 

that we who are alive and remain 

until the coming of the Lord 

will by no means precede 

those who are asleep.

For the Lord Himself 

will descend from heaven 

with a shout, 

with the voice of an archangel, 

and with the trumpet of God. 

And the dead in Christ will rise first. 

Then we who are alive 

and remain 

shall be caught up together with them 

in the clouds 

to meet the Lord in the air. 

And thus we shall always be 

with the Lord.

So, this would imply we could be part of the group 

referenced in Revelation 19:14

But it does not require 

that the Rapture occurred 

before the Tribulation Period.

The final and 5th Point

of this 4th Reason statement is:

The absence of explicit references to the Church 

during the Tribulation judgments 

suggests it is not present on earth 

during this period. 

I would simply repeat, 

that the saints are the Church,

and absence of the word "church" does not prove,

or even suggest to me,

that the body of believers 

that is called the Church

was removed before the events 

described in the book of Revelation.

The purpose of the book of Revelation 

was so we could have an idea of what to expect.

I'd give two references for you to consider.

Revelation chapter 1 verse 19

we read

Write the things which you have seen, 

and the things which are, 

and the things which will 

take place after this.

And near the end of the book,

We see this message is for all the churches.

In Revelation chapter 22 verse 16,

we read

I, Jesus, have sent My angel 

to testify to you these things 

in the churches. 

I am the Root and the Offspring of David, 

the Bright and Morning Star."

That wraps up today's look at Reason 4.

The conclusion being:

At no point in the book of Revelation,

Do we see a removal of the church 

or saints from the planet before the return of Christ,

at the end of the Great Tribulation.

However,

We are promised a future "rest" from 

"persecutions and tribulations", 

"when the Lord Jesus is revealed 

from heaven with His mighty angels"

Reference the full passage in

2 Thessalonians chapter 1 verses 4-10 

I will provide LINKS to additional Blog Posts 

and Videos on this subject in the description below.

And I will combine this 4th Reason discussion

into a playlist covering all 7 parts 

of this series on the 

7 common Reasons 

that are taught to support 

a Pre-trib Rapture.

Thanks for making it to the end of this video,

please leave your comments below,

and click on the Like button,

to help others find this information.

Maranatha.

Youtube version =

https://youtu.be/8RWdRrr21fg

--

Saved by Grace,

Andrew Cross

"Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 

And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, 

but exhorting one another, 

and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Hebrews 10:23-25

YouTube channel = We belong to the Day

Reason 3 of 7 - PreTrib Rapture - Distinction between Israel and the Church

The Distinction between Israel,

and the Church,

is another  reason 

some people believe 

the Church must be Raptured 

before the time of the Great Tribulation.

Let's take a closer look at the scriptures referenced,

and see if this interpretation is accurate.

Youtube = https://youtu.be/T7NbutXv_n8

Point # 3 

in a list of 7 Reasons 

for a Pre-Trib Rapture is:

3. *Distinction between Israel and the Church:*

- **Daniel 9:24-27**: 

The seventy weeks prophecy 

pertains specifically to Israel.
- **Jeremiah 30:7**: 

The time of Jacob's trouble is described as a period 

of intense suffering for Israel.
- **Romans 11:25-27**: 

Paul speaks of a future for Israel 

distinct from the Church.
The Tribulation is primarily focused on Israel 

and the unbelieving world, 

not the Church,
supporting the idea that the Church 

would be raptured 

before this period.

Thanks to David Floyd 

for this 3rd of his 7 Reasons 

he posted in defense

of the Pre-Trib Rapture theory. 

The dividing of the scriptures, 

and God's dealing with mankind through the ages,

is commonly referred to as Dispensationalism.

I've spoken on this topic in previous posts,

so today I'll focus on the 3 scriptures 

referenced to support this way 

of looking at the scriptures.

First, we have mention of 

the 70 weeks prophecy found in Daniel.

Let's read chapter 9 verses 24 - 27,

24 Seventy weeks are decreed
about your people and your holy city—
to bring the rebellion to an end,
to put a stop to sin,
to wipe away iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most holy place.
25 Know and understand this:
From the issuing of the decree
to restore and rebuild Jerusalem
until Messiah the Prince
will be seven weeks and 62 weeks.
It will be rebuilt with a plaza and a moat,
but in difficult times.
26 After those 62 weeks
the Messiah will be cut off
and will have nothing.
The people of the coming prince
will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end will come with a flood,
and until the end there will be war;
desolations are decreed.
27 He will make a firm covenant
with many for one week,
but in the middle of the week
he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering.
And the abomination of desolation
will be on a wing of the temple
until the decreed destruction
is poured out on the desolator."

( HCSB )

The fact this is referring to Israel is true.

Specifically it states
Seventy weeks are decreed
about your people and your holy city

Most everyone agrees the 70 weeks = 490 years

Daniel's people were the scattered nation of Israel.

Daniel's holy city would be Jerusalem.

In my previous posts 

I have discussed the possible dates 

for the START and END of this 490 years.

The point I'd like us to focus on 

is the fact that 490 years 

started and ended nearly 2,000 years ago.

And there is no reference to a GAP or PAUSE 

between the first 483 years, 

and the final 7 years ( last week ).

We are only told the Messiah 

is to show up after the 483 years 

( 7 + 62 weeks ), 

and be cut off sometime after arriving.

And that the city and sanctuary are to be destroyed.

We know from history that occurred in 70 A.D.

And verse 27 mentions a "he", 

and a "covenant",

and a "many". 

Exactly who the He is ( Messiah or Coming Prince ),

What the "covenant" is referencing,

and the WHO

the "many" is referencing 

are all points that are highly debated.

What the passage does not say is,

"the antichrist makes a 7 year peace treaty with Israel,

and breaks it after 3 1/2 years",

although 

I'm sure you've all heard it interpreted that way 

by many well meaning preachers.

If you read it for what is SAYS,

and not ADD to it,

it says nothing about a 7 year tribulation period.

Only that Messiah shows up after the 69 weeks, 

and sometime after that 

the Messiah is cut off,

and after that 

some people will come 

to destroy the city and the sanctuary.

I've discussed the fact that Daniel and Revelation 

clearly reference end times as a period lasting 

3 1/2 years or 

1260 days and 1290 days.

Never are end times referenced as being 7 years.

This is only "assumed" from a mis-understanding 

of the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel.

For more details please see the previous posts.

LINKS in the description below.

The Seventy Weeks of Daniel - When is the Last Week

Youtube video version = https://youtu.be/NDY9ZpYwqrc

Blog post = https://cloudsonthehorizon.blogspot.com/2023/07/the-seventy-weeks-of-daniel-when-is.html

and The 3 and a half year Tribulation 

https://youtu.be/ZKj6zTQnz4I

Blog Post = https://cloudsonthehorizon.blogspot.com/2019/06/

And this SHORT,

Daniel 9 27 He - Who?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WJ0mfQUjWHg?feature=share

Let's move on to the 2nd scripture reference,

and take a closer look at it.

The phrase "time of Jacob's trouble" 

is from Jeremiah chapter 30 verse 7

Reading the full prophecy

including all of Jeremiah chapter 30 and 31,

You will see the many references to the Lord's 

plan to Restore Israel and Judah.

And you'll not find any reason 

the "Church" would need to be removed

for any of this to occur in the future.

Let's read chapter 30 verses 7 - 11,

How awful that day will be!
    No other will be like it.
It will be a time of trouble for Jacob,
    but he will be saved out of it.

8 "'In that day,' declares the Lord Almighty,
    'I will break the yoke off their necks
and will tear off their bonds;
    no longer will foreigners enslave them.
9 Instead, they will serve the Lord their God
    and David their king,
    whom I will raise up for them.

10 "'So do not be afraid, Jacob my servant;
    do not be dismayed, Israel,'
declares the Lord.
'I will surely save you out of a distant place,
    your descendants from the land of their exile.
Jacob will again have peace and security,
    and no one will make him afraid.
11 I am with you and will save you,'
    declares the Lord.
'Though I completely destroy all the nations
    among which I scatter you,
    I will not completely destroy you.
I will discipline you but only in due measure;
    I will not let you go entirely unpunished.'

 

Again, this passage does not support a Pre-Trib removal of the Church.

Moving on to the 3rd scripture reference:

Romans chapter 11 verses 25 - 27,

We read,

For I do not desire, brethren,
that you should be ignorant of this mystery, 
lest you should be wise in your own opinion,
that blindness in part has happened to Israel 
until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 
26 And so all Israel will be saved, 
as it is written:

"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins." 

So here we have Paul quoting from Isaiah, 

to assure us that the Lord has future plans 

for the people of Israel.

A fact that can not be denied.

However,

If you read the rest of Chapter 11,

you see that God has added the Gentiles to His people.

In verses 1 and 2 of this chapter,

we see Paul making this point,

which reads,

 I say then, has God cast away His people? 

Certainly not! 

For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, 

of the tribe of Benjamin. 

2 God has not cast away His people 

whom He foreknew. 

He goes on to paint a picture of Jews as an Olive Tree,

and says that the Gentiles have been grafted into this Olive Tree.

Not that there are two different trees.

And Paul is very clear in other places on this subject.

Ephesians chapter 3 verse 6,

we read

that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, 

of the same body, 

and partakers of His promise 

in Christ through the gospel,

And in Ephesians chapter 2 and verse 14,

we read

For He Himself is our peace, 

who has made both one, 

and has broken down the middle wall of separation,

And in Verse 16,

 and that He might reconcile them both 
to God in one body through the cross, 

thereby putting to death the enmity. 

And in Verse 19,

Now, therefore, 

you are no longer strangers and foreigners, 

but fellow citizens with the saints 

and members of the household of God,

You can find references to the Saints and Elect of God 

to include both Jew and Gentile.

But you won't find any references to Him 

separating the Church 

( which is technically 

both Jewish and Gentile believers ),

from the planet 

UNTIL

He is revealed from heaven.

And it is at that point in time,

that we are to meet the Lord in the Air,

on His way back down to the Mount of Olivet.

One reference

( There are many )

is 2nd Thessalonians chapter 1 verses 7 and 8,

we read,

and to give you 

who are troubled 

rest with us 

when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven 

with His mighty angels, 

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance 

on those who do not know God, 

and on those who do not obey the gospel 

of our Lord Jesus Christ. 

I will provide LINKS to additional Blog Posts 

and Videos on this subject.

And will combine this 3rd Reason discussion

into a playlist covering the 7 parts series on 

the 7 common Reasons 

that are taught to support a Pre-trib Rapture.

Thanks for making it to the end of this video,

please leave your comments below,

and click on the Like button,

to help others find this information.

Maranatha.

--

Saved by Grace,

Andrew Cross

"Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 

And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, 

but exhorting one another, 

and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Hebrews 10:23-25

YouTube channel = We belong to the Day