Reason 4 - Absence of the Church in Revelation Chapters 4 - 19
The argument in this video breaks down because it ignores the two passages that make the identity of the armies in Revelation 19 unmistakable. 1. Jude 14 explicitly says the Lord returns with His saints. If “saints = the church,” as the presenter insists, then Jude shows the church already in heaven before the return. You can’t claim “saints are the church” and then deny Jude’s statement that the Lord comes with tens of thousands of His saints. * Jude verses 14 and 15 does state the Lord comes back with the Saints ( literally "holy ones" ), But this does not mean the Saints were already in heaven.We read: Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” The return of the Lord and the gathering of the Saints occurs at the same time. Referencing 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18, the Lord resurrects believers who have died ( asleep ) and transforms living believers at the time of His Return.We all meet Him in the air on His way back down to earth(at the Mount of Olives). This same resurrection and transformation of believers is referenced in 1st Corinthians 15:50-52, and Philippians 3:20-21.There is no reference to the Lord return to the Earth TWICE. He does return before the Great Tribulation. He only returns once at the end ( to execute judgement and to rule here on Earth ).
2. Revelation 5 shows the redeemed in heaven before any seals or judgments open.
Chapter 5 of Revelation is about Jesus, the Lamb of God, being worthy to open the 7 Seals.There is no mention of the saints being in heaven at that time.We see 3 groups singing and praising the Lord.1) The four living creatures and the 24 elders each having a harp, sing a new song ( Revelation 5:8-10 )2 ) A multitude of angels (Revelation 5:11-12)3 ) Every living creature in heaven and earth. ( Revelation 5:13 )
The only reference to the saints is their prayers in golden bowls full of incense.
Let's read this portion of the Chapter,
Now when He had taken the scroll,
the four living creatures,
and the twenty-four eldersfell down before the Lambeach having a harp,and golden bowls full of incense,which are the prayers of the saints.And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,And to open its seals;For You were slain,And have redeemed us to God by Your bloodOut of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,And have made us kings and priests to our God;And we shall reign on the earth.” These things are already true of the saints.We are redeemed by the blood of Jesus.Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:14 We have been made kings and priests to our God.Revelation 1:6, I Peter 2:9
We shall reign on the earth with the Lord Jesus Christ upon His return.2 Timothy 2:12, Revelation 20:6
The 3 clear passages in scripture concerning the return of Jesus Christ are:Matthew 24:29-31I Corinthians 15:50-52I Thessalonians 4:13-18
All three passages reference the gathering of the believers occurring at the same time as Jesus physically returns at the Last Trumpet.
3. Revelation 19’s armies wear the same clothing given to the redeemed in Revelation 19:8. “Fine linen, bright and clean” is explicitly identified as the righteous acts of the saints. Angels are never described this way, never called redeemed, and never called kings or priests. So the presenter’s claim that Revelation 19 shows “only angels” is contradicted by Jude, contradicted by Revelation 5, and contradicted by Revelation 19:8 itself. If “saints = the church,” then Jude and Revelation 5 together show the church already in heaven before the judgments — which is exactly what the pre‑trib view has always argued.
The phrase "Fine linen, bright and clean"
This imagery is used 3 times in Revelation.
It can refer to redeemed believers or angels.
Angels are clearly referenced in Revelation 15:6
which says,
And out of the ]temple came the seven angels
having the seven plagues,
clothed in pure bright linen,
and having their chests girded with golden bands.
The imagery of the linen is referring to the saints in
Revelation 19:7-8
And could refer to saints, Angels,
or both in Revelation 19:14,
even though all references to the Army of God
seem to point to the Angels in other scriptures.
We must be careful not to "build" doctrine from imagery, parables, and allegories found in scripture.
Especially on topics where there are clear and direct passages on the subject.
None of the referenced passages,
Jude verse 14, Revelation chapter 5, or Revelation chapter 19
prove the believers are to be gathered before the Great Tribulation.
And while some have used these passages to try to prove the "Church" being gathered before the tribulation
and sitting in heaven for 7 years
( or 3 1/2 years since that is how long the tribulation actually lasts ),
This interpretation is not supported by any clear passages.
And it is contrary to the clear passages about
what we are to be expecting and waiting for.
For our citizenship is in heaven,
from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior,
the Lord Jesus Christ,
who will transform our lowly body
that it may be conformed
to His glorious body,
according to the working
by which He is able
even to subdue all things to Himself.
Again, this all occurs at the Last Trumpet,
and not before the Great Tribulation.
Reference:
Matthew 24:29-31I Corinthians 15:50-52I Thessalonians 4:13-18
Saved by Grace,
Andrew Cross
"Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
"Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,
not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some,
but exhorting one another,
and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
Hebrews 10:23-25
