Clouds and the timing of the Rapture

Does Jesus come IN a Cloud?

ON a Cloud?

Or simply WITH the Clouds?

And more importantly,

Are the scriptures telling us about 2 different Comings of Christ,

or 

do they all refer to the same
end time event?

*** Youtube Video Version = https://youtu.be/NDS7YDfPTPo

It has been suggested 

( taught ) by some,

that the term "IN" a cloud found 

in Luke chapter 21 verses 27 and 28

is the Rapture of the Saints before the Great Tribulation.

because it says "IN" and the Cloud is singular.

And that other passages

such as Revelation chapter 1 verse 7, 

where it says 

"coming with the clouds" 

means a different event 

at the end of the Tribulation period.

I would only agree that 

the passage in Revelation chapter 1,

is happening at the end of the tribulation period,

as it states 

every eye will see Him.

But not that Luke chapter 21

is referencing a different event.

The physical return to earth of our Lord

mentioned in Revelation chapter 1,

is revealed to occur on the Mount of Olivet 

as referenced in 

Acts chapter 1 verses 9 -11,

where the ascension 

is presented as a singular cloud 

taking Jesus up into heaven.

And the angels clearly say 

we should expect to see Him 

return to the same spot 

and coming down in a cloud 

( the same way He left ).

Looking closer at 

Luke chapter 21 verses 27 and 28,

we can see Jesus is describing 

the same end time events 

as we find in Matthew 

chapter 24 verses 29 through 31.

In chapter 24 and verse 30

it says He returns

"on the clouds",

and 

in Mark chapter 13 verse 26 

we see this same return

"in the clouds".

So, there is no reason to believe

the passage in Luke is talking about

a DIFFERENT event.

Shortly I will quote these and other scriptures more fully.

There are no scriptures that say Jesus Christ is returning TWICE.

I was taught that 

but I don't see it in the scriptures.

No where does it say He returns,

Once BEFORE the Great Tribulation starts, 

and 

then AGAIN at the end.

This would be a GAP of 3 1/2 

or 7 years later 

depending on your understanding 

of the prophecy's in Daniel and Revelation.

Both mention the length of time involved,

as 1260 days 

or 42 months for the reign of the beast, 

and 

the preaching of the 2 witnesses.

Also we see reference to

a time, 

times, 

and 1/2 time, 

commonly understood to mean 3 1/2 years.

And a slightly longer 

"total" time of 1290 days 

to the "end of these things" 

spoken of in Daniel 12.

The extra 30 days could be the amount of time 

for the 7 bowls of God's wrath 

in Revelation chapters 15 and 16.

The beast's "reign" would have ended 

by the time those bowls are poured out.

I'm looking forward to 

day 1,335, 

as mentioned in Daniel 12:12.

*

Okay, if I have not lost you yet, 

and you have some more time,

Let's read through "clouds" passages 

that reference the return of Christ 

( the Son of Man ).

Starting with Daniel chapter 7 and verses 13 and 14,

we read

I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion 

and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, 

and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

And now look at 

Matthew chapter 24 verses 29 - 31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days 

the sun will be darkened, 

and the moon will not give its light; 

the stars will fall from heaven, 

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man 

will appear in heaven, 

and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, 

and they will see the Son of Man 

coming on the clouds of heaven 

with power and great glory. 

31 And He will send His angels 

with a great sound of a trumpet, 

and they will gather together His elect 

from the four winds, 

from one end of heaven to the other.

And Mark chapter 13 

and verses 24 through 26 

say pretty just the same thing,

"But in those days, 

after that tribulation, 

the sun will be darkened, 

and the moon will not give its light; 

25 the stars of heaven will fall, 

and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 

26 Then they will see the Son of Man 

coming in the clouds 

with great power and glory.

NOW let's look at the gospel of LUKE,

and you tell me 

if you think he is talking about the same event,

or a "different" ( secret ) 

return / rapture?

Chapter 21 verses 25 - 28

we read

And there will be signs in the sun, 

in the moon, 

and in the stars; 

and on the earth distress of nations, 

with perplexity, 

the sea and the waves roaring; 

26 men's hearts failing them from fear 

and the expectation 

of those things which are coming on the earth, 

for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

27 Then 

they will see the Son of Man 

coming in a cloud 

with power and great glory. 

28 Now when these things begin to happen, 

look up and lift up your heads, 

because your redemption draws near."

* I honestly see the 3 different gospels talking 

about the ONE and ONLY - SAME

end time event.

The visible return of Jesus 

at the end of the Great Tribulation.

Now let's look closer at what Luke shares

in Acts chapter 1 and verses 9 through 11

Now when He had spoken these things, 

while they watched, 

He was taken up, 

and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 

10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up,

 behold, 

two men stood by them in white apparel, 

11 who also said, 

"Men of Galilee, 

why do you stand gazing up into heaven? 

This same Jesus, 

who was taken up from you 

into heaven, 

will so come in like manner 

as you saw Him go into heaven."

** Pretty plain.

A cloud received Him out of their sight.

and He is will come back in like manner.

And it should be noted this occurs at the mount of olives.

Verse 12 says,

Then they returned to Jerusalem 

from the mount called Olivet, 

which is near Jerusalem, 

a Sabbath day's journey.

The exact spot prophesied 

in Zechariah chapter 14 and verse 3 and 4

Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand 

on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives 

shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

Getting back to the CLOUDS,

We can now look at the most famous "Rapture" passage.

In 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 and verse 16 through 18 

we read

 For the Lord Himself 

will descend from heaven with a shout, 

with the voice of an archangel, 

and with the trumpet of God. 

And the dead in Christ will rise first. 

17 Then we who are alive and remain 

shall be caught up together with them 

in the clouds 

to meet the Lord in the air. 

And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

There is no reason to believe 

this descending by the Lord 

in the clouds

is a different event than the one referenced 

in Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts 

and Revelation chapter 1.

It's time to look at 

Revelation chapter 1 and verse 7,

Behold, He is coming with clouds, 

and every eye will see Him, 

even they who pierced Him. 

And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. 

Even so, Amen.

Here John seems to be referencing

Zechariah chapter 12 and verse 10 

we read 

And I will pour on the house of David 

and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem 

the Spirit of grace and supplication; 

then they will look on Me 

whom they pierced. 

Yes, 

they will mourn for Him 

as one mourns for his only son, 

and grieve for Him 

as one grieves for a firstborn. 

So, 

we see the return of Christ from heaven,

to involve a cloud.

And the cloud is likely among many clouds,

besides the one that He is 

"In" 

or "On".

I am saying that I believe 

that the slight different in phrasing 

of this return mentioned in all these passages,

as 

In, 

On, 

or 

With,

does not require that we see them as 2 or 3 different events.

The CONTEXT of each passage makes it clear,

Jesus is Coming Back.

And He is coming from above 

( where the Clouds are ).

With nothing in scripture to separate them 

into two different time periods,

or 

two different events.

So, if you are looking for "proof" 

of a pre-tribulation rapture event,

you can not,

should not 

use the "Cloud" verses as your evidence.

One last "Cloud" passage we need to look at

references the 2 witnesses killed 

in Revelation chapter 11 verse 7.

As some would say 

or 

think that their being received into the cloud

is a reference to the Rapture.

Let's read the passage:

Chapter 11 verses 10 - 14

Now after the three-and-a-half days 
the breath of life from God entered them, 
and they stood on their feet,
and great fear fell on those who saw them. 
12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, 
"Come up here." 
And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, 
and their enemies saw them. 
13 In the same hour 
there was a great earthquake, 
and a tenth of the city fell.
In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed,
and the rest were afraid 
and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past.
Behold,
the third woe is coming quickly.

*

Besides no reference to anyone else ascending,

nor anyone seeing Christ.

We see the 3rd and final WOE 

( which is the 7th Trumpet ) 

is yet to come.

I would not say it's impossible 

that the gathering of the believers 

happens at this time,

but I do not see any clear reference 

in the scripture.

I have people who have tried to 

"read things into"  1st Thessalonians 4:16,

By saying the "shout" = "come up here", 

but that is not actually in the passage.

The "shout" is never "defined" 

or put into words for us 

to know what we are likely to hear.

The Last Trumpet occurs after - 

not the same time as the ascension

of the two witnesses.

And the "dead in Christ" refers to all believers

who have "fallen asleep in the Lord",

and not just these two matryed witnesses.

We should also consider that

God has called up other saints to heaven in the past.

Enoch and Elijah both seem to have ascended 

before physically dying.

And that is why many will propose 

that they are the two witnesses that God 

sends back to earth during the Great Tribulation.

Maybe yes,

maybe no. 

We have no clear scriptures to support that theory.

But I can't argue against it either.

Let's just wait and see.

For those reasons,

I am not inclined to believe 

the calling up of the two witnesses, 

and the rapture are connected.

That should cover all the relavent scriptures 

that reference the Lord's Return and His coming

in,

with, 

and 

on 

a cloud ( or clouds ).

I would like to close with Paul's encourage to us,

as children of the day.

1st Thessalonians Chapter 5 verses 1 - 11

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren,
you have no need that I should write to you. 
2 For you yourselves know perfectly 
that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 

3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them, 
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape. 

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness. 
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, 
but let us watch and be sober ( alert ).
 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 
8 But let us who are of the day be sober ( alert ),
 putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, 
but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another,
just as you also are doing.

AMEN!

--

Saved by Grace,

Andrew Cross

"Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 

And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, 

but exhorting one another, 

and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Hebrews 10:23-25

YouTube channel = We belong to the Day

Post Tribulation Rapture - The Day of the Lord Timing

The Question:

Does the Rapture occur before or after the Great Tribulation?

Let's look at some passages of scripture 

That will help pinpoint the timing of this event.

*

The timing of WHEN the Rapture 

and 

When the 2nd coming of Jesus is to occur, 

can be seen in several scriptures that address this topic.

There are 2 events that can help us understand

When the Rapture 

( Our Gathering to Christ ),

and the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ will occur.

NAMELY,

1 ) The First Resurrection

and

2 ) The Day of the Lord

Today I'd like to take a close look at the second one,

The Day of the Lord.

Now let me start by saying, one could write a large book 

to cover all the scriptures 

and aspects of The Day Of The Lord.

I am only going to touch on the Timing

of the Day of the Lord,

as it pertains to the Rapture of the believers.

We see Paul discussing the timing 

of the return of Christ,

and the Day of the Lord 

in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians.

1 Thessalonians chapter 5 verses 1 - 5 

we read

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, 

you have no need that I should write to you. 

2 For you yourselves know perfectly 

that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 

3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" 

then sudden destruction comes upon them, 

as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. 

And they shall not escape. 

4 But you, brethren, 

are not in darkness, 

so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 

5 You are all sons of light 

and sons of the day. 

We are not of the night 

nor of darkness. 

I'd like to point out 2 things about this passage.

First,

There are two groups, 

The first group is "they"

"they" will be saying "Peace and Safety",

which could fit with the celebrabration in Revelation chapter 11,

when the beast kills the 2 witnesses. 

10 And those who dwell on the earth 

will rejoice over them, 

make merry, 

and send gifts to one another, 

because these two prophets 

tormented those who dwell on the earth.

But we see everything change drastically after 3 1/2 days.

The 2nd woe ends, and the 3rd follows quickly,

which is the 7th and final trumpet.

Revelation chapter 11 verse 15,

we read

Then the seventh angel sounded: 

And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, 

"The kingdoms of this world 

have become the kingdoms of our Lord 

and of His Christ, 

and He shall reign 

forever and ever!"

And the next "event" in Revelation is found in chapter 16 

when the 7 bowls ( vials ) of the wrath of God are poured out.

Okay, I just had to throw that all in,

but getting back to when the Rapture occurs,

as it relates to the Day of the Lord,

let's look next at 

2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 1 - 3

we read

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

 and our gathering together to Him, 

we ask you, 

2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, 

either by spirit or by word or by letter, 

as if from us, 

as though the day of Christ ( or LORD ) 

had come. 

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; 

for that Day will not come 

unless the falling away comes first, 

and the man of sin is revealed, 

the son of perdition, 

Paul is telling the Thessalonians, 

that despite some rumors they might have heard,

there was no way the Day of the Lord had begun,

because two things have to occur FIRST.

"the apostasy" or falling way,

and

the antichrist or man of sin,

has to be revealed 

( show Up ).

He describes the man of sin in detail 

if you read further in the same chapter.

Now let's backtrack.

Why did Paul tell them these "facts"?

To prove that the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ 

and our gathering to Him 

had not been missed,

and 

would not / could not occur until 

AFTER

the beast sets up his kingdom, 

which we know from Daniel and Revelation 

will last approximately 42 months or 1260 days.

This fits with the other things 

Paul told the Thessalonians in his first letter.

More from Chapter 5,

verses 4 - 10

we read,

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, 

so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 

5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. 

We are not of the night nor of darkness. 

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, 

but let us watch and be sober. 

7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, 

and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 

8 But let us who are of the day be sober, 

putting on the breastplate of faith and love, 

and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 

9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, 

but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 

10 who died for us, 

that whether we wake or sleep, 

we should live together with Him.

* The return of Christ 

should not be a SURPRISE to us.

We are children of the light 

and of the day.

We are to be WATCHING, 

and 

that DAY should NOT overtake us as a thief.

Only the Lost - 

those who refuse to believe the truth,

will be caught off guard 

( like an unexpected thief in the night 

coming to rob them ).

** I've gone into more than I need to make my point,

but I believe this is another important passage 

that has been overlooked by the church.

Since the church has been told the LIE 

of an any moment -

secret ( quiet - invisible )

rapture,

They don't understand 

that they need to be alert or watching.

They will unfortunately be caught off guard,

and likely many will fall away from the faith,

when they see the world 

turning UPSIDE DOWN,

and 

they are still here on earth, 

and 

not "vacationing" in heaven for 7 years,

like they were taught.

There I go again.

Sorry, the more I study this subject 

- rereading all the prophetic passages, 

I have become more "concerned" 

about what I see as another big LIE 

that Satan is using 

to undermine the truth about God.

We have had "science" telling us 

we are just a random chance life form

for over a century.

And that LIE

has caused much grief and sorrow 

to those seeking meaning and purpose to life.

Things we can only find in the Bible, 

and through a relationship with our Creator.

A relationship that is available by trusting Him, 

and accepting the gift of eternal life 

by faith in Jesus 

as our Savior / Redeemer.

If I have not lost you yet,

let me share a few more scriptures 

that help reveal that the time of the 2nd coming 

and our gathering occurs 

at the end of the Great Tribulation.

This one includes a bit of the salvation message in it too,

Hebrews chapter 9 verse 28,

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. 

To those who eagerly wait for Him 

He will appear a second time, 

apart from sin, for salvation.

In 2 Timothy chapter 4 verse 1

we read

I charge you therefore before God 

and the Lord Jesus Christ,

who will judge the living and the dead 

at His appearing 

and His kingdom:

In Acts chapter 3 verses 19 - 21

we read

19 Repent therefore and be converted, 

that your sins may be blotted out, 

so that times of refreshing may come 

from the presence of the Lord, 

20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, 

who was preached to you before, 

21 whom heaven must receive 

until the times of restoration of all things, 

which God has spoken by the mouth 

of all His holy prophets
since the world began.

Verse 21 is the one I want you to look at closely.

"UNTIL" 

the times of restoration of all things.

The old testament prophets are full of scriptures 

describing the future time of restoration,

and it is almost always tied directly to 

The Day of the Lord

 ( or  simply"In That Day" ).

I could fill several pages with quotes, 

but I'll just suggest you search them on your own,

if you'd like to see more 

about what the old testament prophets 

have to say on the subject.

One of the best descriptions

of the TIMING of the Day of the Lord 

can be found in the book of Matthew.

And in case you believe those words are specifically for end time Jews and not us,

I'll include similar passages in Luke and Revelation.

In Matthew chapter 24 and verses 27 - 31,

we read,

27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west,
so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 

28 For wherever the carcass is,
there the eagles will be gathered together.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days 
the sun will be darkened, 

and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man
will appear in heaven, 
and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
and they will see the Son of Man coming
on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they will gather together His elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke chapter 21 and verse 27,

we read,

27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud
with power and great glory.

These all Sound similar to what Paul describes
in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4,

and 1 Corinthians chapter 15.

Which I quoted extensively in the previous post.

Another related passage is,

Revelation chapter 1 and verse 7

we read

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, 

even they who pierced Him. 

And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. 

Even so, Amen.

** I'll be getting more into this "remnant",

who is still alive, 

yet not raptured at the first resurrection in a future post.

The question of "who" will repopulate the earth, 

if the saints are all given glorified bodies at the return of Christ,

and most of the unbelieving wick people

are killed by the 7 bowls of God's wrath,

Who are these remaining 

"tribes of the earth" 

Who will be "mourning" 

when they SEE Jesus return?

Short answer - 

God is able to provide or preserve those whom He has chosen.

And this selection process will play out 

when He gathers and divides the nations.

But again, this requires a whole post of its own. 

And I'm working on it.

But I'll close with this passage,

as it shows us that the LORD has plans 

for His remnant. 

In Jeremiah chapter 23 and verses 3 - 6

we read,

"But I will gather the remnant of My flock
out of all countries where I have driven them, 

and bring them back to their folds;
and they shall be fruitful and increase. 

4 I will set up shepherds over them
who will feed them; 

and they shall fear no more,
nor be dismayed, 

nor shall they be lacking," says the Lord.
5 "Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord,
"That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment
and righteousness in the earth.
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name
by which He will be called:

THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Youtube Video Version =

https://youtu.be/0HiVcT2wDpM

--

Saved by Grace,

Andrew Cross

"Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 

And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, 

but exhorting one another, 

and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Hebrews 10:23-25

YouTube channel = We belong to the Day